Great discussion, and this is a much better way for me to
discuss, via the written word, as I am not very elegant at taking what
is on my heart and mind and making it come out clearly from my mouth.
Let me start out with the question of woman evangelizing. The two
"Great Missions" so to speak that the Lord gives us in scripture is
the Dominion Mandadte (Gen 1:28) and the Great Comission (Mark 16:15).
The Dominion Mandate tells men to be fruitful and Multiply to fill
the earth and subdue it. To be fruitful is to have children, to
multipy is to have many children. Unless you believe this passage is
refering to us planting trees =).
God wants the Family, in particular the Christian family to control
the earth.
As for the Great Comission, read the verses before Mark 16:15.
Jesus has gathered his disciples around him at the table in fellowship
and he gives this mission to his disciples.
Notice though in both these mission, God gives the mission directly
to the men, in Genesis Eve is not even created yet when God gives Adam
this mission, yes the mission is for both of them, as the scripture
uses the word "them" refering to two. But the mission is giving
vocally to Adam. Then God creates Eve, a helper unto Adam, to help him
fulfill this mission.
You see this is what woman is particularly designed to do, be a
helper. It is in our makeup, what we were created for. We cannot
escape it no matter how hard we try.
Perhaps I am wrong but it seems to me that you are seeing woman as
a lessor creature if we cannot have this role of leadership over men.
Submission is not a dirty word, just as patriarchy is not. Sumbission
is to be humble, obedient, with a servants heart. All great, valuable
praisworthy virtues. We are different indeed, but does different mean
lessor. Men need helpers, you cannot, you cannot fullfil your God
given mission without us. We can do things you can never do. You
cannot bear children, therefore you cannot fulfill the Dominion
Mandate without us, the first great mission that the Lord gives.
Woman are particularly suited for hospitatlity, sure men can do it,
but woman can do it better. Just as woman can lead, but men can do it
better.
Consider your presupositions, why do you presupose the
things you supose? Could it be because our culture, our families, even
our church's have fead us lies. No longer looking toward what scriptue
says as all sufitiant, but to the example of the world.
Consider for example the church's model of Sunday and youth groups,
and seperating the families by age and maturity. This is not based on
scripture, but on evolutionist theory. In the late ninteenth century.
G. Stanley Hall considered to himself and then began to explore
darwinism. He considered that child growth is like evolution, he based
the different stages of our childrens life on evolution theory,
larvae, and ect. Therefore if our children are in different stages of
evolution we cannot mix them together in the class room, because it
would mess up the evolution process. He published his theory in 1904.
The school began to change and the churches followed. Tell me has this
helped the children mature? Or are children more immature now then
they have ever been. Children no longer get to learn from the example
of their elders, they don't get to see maturety in action, fathers no
longer disciple sons. Messages are watered down to a level we think
they can understand.
Our time in history right now is the abortation. For 2000 years,
indeed 6000 years before us woman were not pastors. Father lead
households not mothers. Woman submitted to men. Daughters followed
their fathers athority until it was transfered to a husband.
Are we progressing, is the evolution finally working, is what you
call progress? No this not progress towards a greater spiritual state.
After 2000 years of Christindom we were the generation that finally
figured it out, all the men who have gone before us just did not have
the capabilities to understand these things. No society and the church
even is a mess now. Families are screwed up, Christian families are
screwed up.
Our roles and views of woman in society today come not from
scripture but from feminism which is a product of marxism.
You see even feminist are helping a man, Karl Marx fulfill his
vision of tearing down the families.
Let us turn to the example of scripture and prove these things.
First let us take scripture as a whole, the word of God when speaking
is speaking to men. Why because men are supose to take these things
and teach them to their family. That is the man's responsibility to be
the spiritual head of the home. The geanelogies are traced back
through the father's family, not the mother's not even both, whith the
exeption of Christ.
When speaking of Pastors the old Testament a new referes to men,
using words such as he and him. When the New Testament and Old gives
the Criteria for pastors and leaders of Countries it says they must
clearly be men. 1 Timothy 3:1-14 Husbands of one wife, not husbands
of one wife or wife's of one husband.
Look to the examples of the widows in 1 Timothy 5. What are the
good deeds that widows indeed must have done, they must be bearers of
children, lodged strangers, (hospitable), helped those in adversity,
and washed the saints feet. It speaks nothing of being a preacher, of
evangalizing by standing on their soap box on the street. What does
the scripture tell the young widows to do. Marry, have children,and
govern the house.
You sight 1 Timothy 2:12, it speaks planly enough to me, but what
of the verses that follow, verse 13 and 14 and 15.
What of 1 Cor 14, verse 34 says we ought to keep silent as the law
say. This is something that woman had know for centuries, it is
written in God's Law.
Ephesians 5:22-24. wives are meant to submit to husbands, for the
husband is the wife head, just as Christ is the head of the church.
Are woman not meant to teach, yes we are meant to teach. Titus 2:
3-5, we are supose to teach honest things, to whom, to younger ladies.
We are suppose to teach younger ladies to do what, to be sober minded,
to love their husbands and children. That they may be chaste keepers
of the home, good, and subject to their husbands. Why are we woman
suppose to do this, that the word of God is not spoken evil of, what a
great duty.
Also look to the example of 1 peter 3:1-7. Read this passage
carefully. Bu us obeying our husbans, verse 1 says that without
speaking the word to men, as is not permitted to us, that the men may
be won by our example. By watching us be dutiful towards our husbands.
Verse 7 says we are the weaker vessel, weaker not lessor. To think
that something weak is lessor is not a Biblical idea, but a humanist
evolutionist idea. Yet because we are weaker we need men to lead us.
verse 7 says men give HONOR to us because we are weaker. It is a thing
of honor.
As for the ladies you mentioned in Philipians it says they labored
with Paul, indeed but how? As helpers, it does not say they preachd
along side him. As for the ladies mentioned in Romans 16 Pheobe is
comended for her hospitality, as for the Greek words I don't know
anything. But to my naked eye it seems she was a helper. My mother did
mention to me that her Greek prophesor in College one of the top in
the Country mentioned that many things had been purposfully changed in
passages such as these.
As for the other woman in Romans 16 Prisiclla and Aquila are called
fellow helpers. Mary bestowed much labor, Salute Thryphena and
Tryphosa and Persis which labored much in the Lord. What sort of
labor? Perhap the sort of labor that scripture says woman ought to be
doing? Loving husband, keeping the home, bearing children.Being
hospitable.
Notice in scripture the great blessings God bestows on the
Shumenite woman 2 Kings 4: 8-37, she is hospitable and the Lord
blessed her baren womb with a son.
What of the career woman in Exodus 1:15-21, they obeyed and feared
the Lord therefore he gave them families.
What of he female prophets in the scripture. In 2 Chronicles
34:21-29 we find a female prophet, notice that the king sends the man
to come to her for the message she does not go to the King. Notice the
same also takes place with Deborah the Prophet. The people come to her
she never goes out to them, the same is true of Miriam and Anna.
Yes at times the men Prophets would have the people come to them,
but often they would go out, yet never do we see that among the woman.
I believe perhaps we could make a Biblical argument that woman can
speak to men, when the men come ask them to do so. However it is a
clear violation of scripture as I understand it for a woman to lead
over men, to be a pastor.
I pray that I have addressed this using scripture and history as a
whole. I hope I answered your questions. For further resources I would
sugest the CD woman's role in the church which you can download from
Behemoth.com Also you could go to the
ladiesagainstfeminism.com or
visionarydaughters.com also ladiesagainstfeminism has links to many
similar website you may find helpful.
Thanks for bringing this up, I really enjoyed discussing this with you.
Melody
